I Borrowed From 80 Different Lenders Before It All Collapsed | Matt Haycox

Everyone borrows. Almost nobody borrows from eighty different people

Repurposed from Jigar Sagar's podcast The Hidden Code, this one is about money - how you get it, how you keep it, and what happens when the people lending it to you all want it back at once. Matt takes it from a kid asking his mum whether the doctor was a millionaire, to running the biggest strip club group in the UK by 28, to a perfect credit rating in June 2008 and personal bankruptcy by September.

He walks through what the borrowing actually looked like: 24-month terms instead of ten years, 20% instead of 8%, 200 finance agreements across 80 lenders, and every one of them personally guaranteed. Then the harder part - why the lenders wouldn't restructure, what he learned about leverage that he still uses, and how the man who owed £45 million ended up being the one deciding whether other people are worth lending to.

Jigar also gets him on Dubai: why it's a terrible market to borrow in and a brilliant one to raise in, whether the new bankruptcy laws have changed anything on the ground, and why Matt would still put 85% of what he owns on the line today.

Chapters
0:00 - Coming Up
0:18 - Intro
1:02 - Too Many Businesses to Have One Title
2:17 - Growing Up in Leeds
4:00 - "Is He a Millionaire?" Matt's Only Metric of Success
8:02 - Leaving University for a Failing Uniform Business
10:50 - What You Could Learn About Business Before the Internet
14:32 - Getting Into the Bar Trade at 21
18:18 - Buying Bars With Cheques That Hadn't Cleared
21:02 - Why Bars Don't Make Money and Strip Clubs Do
24:03 - Where the Courage Came From
26:07 - 200 Finance Agreements From 80 Different Lenders
32:20 - Cross-Collateralised: Signing Personal Guarantees on Everything
33:28 - Bankrupt by September and How the Comeback Started
37:15 - What to Do When Your Business Runs Out of Cash
40:43 - Why Matt Moved to Dubai
44:18 - Does the UAE's Bankruptcy Law Actually Work?
47:14 - Why Dubai Feels Safer Than Europe
52:58 - Would He Take the Same Risks Today?
55:10 - Dubai as a Network
56:07 - Rapid Fire: Raising Money, Red Flags and Bankruptcy
01:00:24 - Final Thoughts: The One Industry He'd Bet On Now 

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Connect with Matt Haycox, No BS Business Podcast Host & 8-Figure Entrepreneur.

I’m Matt Haycox, entrepreneur, investor, and your straight-talking guide to building a business that actually works. I’ve raised over £750M, built (and rebuilt) 8-figure companies, and learned the hard way what it really takes to win.

On No Bollocks with Matt Haycox, I cut through the bollocks to bring you raw conversations with 7–8 figure founders, investors, and experts who’ve been there, done it, and got the scars to prove it. No hype, no theory, just actionable strategies you can use today to start, grow, and scale your business.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

The mainstream banks didn't want to be in that industry, which left me with no alternative other than to go to niche lenders, alternative lenders, not loan sharks or anyone dodgy, but just different lenders who would lend over 24 months instead of 10 years, who would be charging 20% interest rates, not 8% interest rates.

SPEAKER_00 0:21

Hello everyone, I'm Drigar Sagar, a Sri Lanka entrepreneur, investor, and a strategic government advisor. Welcome to today's episode of The Hidden Code. And with me is Matt Haycock, someone I've known for a while, and he is an interesting person to me because he does way too many things, just like how I like it and how I do it. He loves color, and as you all know me, so do I. Matt, firstly, welcome. Thanks for having me. And uh thanks for taking time out. I know you've been traveling around the world and you've managed to get some time out to be here today. So thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Matt, now a lot of my audience may not necessarily know, you know, what do you do? But I know that you're an investor, you're an entrepreneur, um, you're into your own uh personal brand, PR, marketing agency, way too many things uh for me. Too many things. Yeah, for me to you know give you one title. Um I mean I can't even tell you that you're just a founder or not, because but there's something that I definitely think uh you deserve a title of is uh one of I would say comeback, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:37

Um mistake maker.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Mistake maker, but uh circumstantially uh sometimes things are beyond our control and you know we don't make the most out of the situation and sometimes the situation just doesn't work in our way and you've seen some really hard days and usually um I think it's uh easier for people who have never seen great days uh to just accept what is uh while someone like you in fact uh comes from an entertainment uh industry background, made a lot of money, and then the crisis hit in 2008. That was before all of that happened. I want to go back to your early childhood. Who are you? Where did you grow up? What did you do?

SPEAKER_01 2:24

So I'm from Leeds in the north of England, which is uh it's not it's not a not a small town, or it's a city, not a small city, although everything feels tiny after having spent time in Dubai. Um, but I I grew up in I guess what you would describe as an entrepreneurial household. My uh my parents were my my dad had his own business, my mum worked for my dad, um, and my dad uh he he he was in IT, he had he had he had a computer company and he was effectively first generation entrepreneur, you know, he came from you know what we'd call a um a blue-collar background in the UK. Uh he was the first person in his family line to go to university, uh worked for somebody else, started his own business, and ultimately was you know was very successful, which you know later in my life he he he sold that business. I guess being around it passed on by osmosis, but that said, my parents were were the very opposite of um let's say entrepreneurs who want their kids to be entrepreneurs. You know, no now nowadays you you know you hear people like well, I never went to university and I built my own business and that's what I wanted my kids to do. My parents couldn't have been any more opposite. My parents were education obsessed, particularly my mum. But I think for for I always say for a few different reasons. If we go back to this, we're talking the early 90s, let's say. Right. In the early 90s, you know, there there was no celebrity entrepreneurs, there was no YouTube and or or social media, and all these different ways that make pi make people make money now. And it was very much thought of, and probably very much true, that the only real way to make money was to own your own business. That's what I wanted to do because I wanted to make big money.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

But did you understand uh at that time or at that age, maybe let's say in your teens, um because I grew up in an entrepreneurial uh background, right? But like a family business background, and in today's day and age, I sort of differentiate between what's entrepreneurship and what's what's family business. Sure. Because I don't think doing one thing is any more considered entrepreneurship. But having said that, at that age, did you have a realization that you had to have your own business to be rich, or you could have a fancy job at a bank or you know at a multinational corp, or something like that?

SPEAKER_01 4:35

No, no. I mean it was very much the the mindset or the belief back then that you could only make big money by owning your own business.

SPEAKER_00 4:43

So this was something that was taught to you from an early age.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Yeah, v uh I mean you you could do well by by being a bit in a profession, you know, by being a top lawyer or being a top doctor or or something. But my I mean, I can remember it, you know, like it was yesterday. My question about every career, I used to say to my mum, is he a millionaire? Is he a millionaire? Because that that was my only interest, you know, that that that was my my metric of success. She'd be saying, Well, you know, you should be a doctor or you should be a lawyer. She was talking from a respectability point, really, because you know, again back then, you know, it was a great thing for your kids to have gone to private school. And then if your kids have gone to private school, it was a waste for them to have not gone to university, and then to do university and to get these jobs that that that kind of make you know make the family proud. You know, my my my son's been to university and he's a doctor, whereas I'd be I would have been happier being a market trader, uh, you know, m making money at 18. And and these were the kind of things I did. So when I say I wanted to be in business, I had no idea what business I wanted to be in. I I didn't even care what business I wanted to be in.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

I just didn't want to join the family business?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

Um, no. Um boring? I guess it was it was never really something that was on offer anyway. I mean, I mean it was um my my dad was in IT. Uh he he wrote uh finance software for for leasing houses, you know, for for big banks, for car for car manufacturers. So it was never it wasn't really one of those things where um I don't let's say he was a manufacturer, uh, a a trader, a wholesaler, you know, where it it seems to pass into the family easier because you can kind of get in easier. All his staff, they were all uh you know, they were all competent coders, or they or they were management people who'd been through management degrees, etc. Which again a another talking back to the university thing, not only was it, let's say, the respectable thing to do, you were basically unemployable back then if you if you didn't have a university degree. But yeah, but I I never wanted to do it. So so so there was a lot of friction, happy friction, but there was a lot of friction between me and my parents, particularly my mother, uh, in terms of what you know what career path I was going to do, because I was like, listen, I'm leaving school at 18 because as soon as I finish my A-levels, anything further education is a waste of my time. And she was like, No, no, no, you've got to go and do your do your degree. Then if you want to try and do some business, do it after your degree. So you know, eight eighteen was going to be that that big tipping point. I mean, during during my earlier years, you know, 14 to 18, I was trying anything I could to make money. I mean, we you know back then we used to have uh these paper, these proper like newspapers and magazines in England. They still exist, apparently. Yeah, uh, but I remember one called The Exchange and Mart, uh, and this was uh basically a magazine that just uh sold a lot of secondhand stuff and a lot of rubbish, but they always had a section in there called business opportunities, and typically what these business opportunities were was just some get rich quick rubbish, you know, where you send off a stamped addressed envelope and maybe a £20 note in it, and someone was going to send you send you a system to make millions. And I used to buy all these and excitedly wait for them to arrive at the house, and yeah, I must have been on every mailing list uh under the sun for you know for people selling business opportunities. I used to sell things down the market, I remember buying and selling domain names. I uh I would do anything possible to uh to to try and make some money and avoid uh avoid having to go to university.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

Listen, I mean I think it's um you know always good to want to make more money, and uh I think circumstantially um growing up where you grew up, I mean it's a privilege, but then it's also about what you make out of it, right? I mean, there's so many people who are born with that privilege, but they probably don't know what they're doing in life. Now at some point, um, you know, post that university journey, how did you land up in the entertainment industry?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So uh going back to the university thing, I so I went to university uh from school, or I'll rephrase it, I started university from school because uh it seemed there was no way I was going to get you know get away from my from from my mother's obsession with getting me there. At the time, my dad had he'd sold his business by this point, and he'd started to invest in a couple of other things, and he invested in what I would have then described as a family business, not our family business, but somebody else's family business, selling uh selling clothing and uniforms. So I got him to allow me to go and work there alongside university, okay. And I did about six weeks of doing them both, uh, but it was just impossible. I I mean it's funny because all of my older friends who'd gone to university, they didn't seem to do any work, they had like three hours a week of lectures and just went out drinking all the time. So I thought, well, I'll do my three hours a week, and instead of going out drinking, I'll go and work in this business. But my degree seemed to have 40 hours a week of lectures and all these books and all this homework, so I was run raggedy between the two. It was never going to be possible for me to do both. Um, and I I finally convinced my parents to let me leave university for a year because you know we have that gap year concept in England, and a lot of my friends had taken gap years to go travelling or whatever. So I said, let me take a gap year, uh, I'll do it to work here, and I will, you know, make my money during this year. And as long as I've made money, I won't be going back to uni. But if I haven't, you know, been able to stand on my own two feet, then I go back to university in a year's time. And I I always say that, you know, 27 years on, I'm still praying that I don't have to sign up as a mature student in sept in September. Um, but so so that's that's how I started into work, and I started in this family business, started initially initially in sales, and ultimately allowed my dad to allow me to take over and run it because it was uh it was a shambles, it was uh everything was falling to pieces, nobody wanted to to deal with us, clients were leaving, suppliers wouldn't supply us, banks wouldn't work with us, staff were in a mutiny.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Would you say that would be the first business that you properly ran as a top boss, probably?

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Absolutely. And and uh but I was a an 18-year-old top boss who who who knew nothing other than uh I guess two uh anything I'd read in books for the previous four or five years.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

It doesn't seem like you were reading a lot of books either.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

Well, no, I I did I did I did I did read books, but again, you we've got to put into context, you know, the the the time the time is in like you know early nineties here. Right. And when I say there wasn't a lot of books, I mean obviously there was there were books, but uh you know, we're not in the stone.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

We didn't have the distractions that we have today. You didn't have to sit on the gram, you didn't have to shoot your podcast.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

So but but we didn't we didn't have the quantity of information available to us back then. So you know if I think about the business books look if right now, if I go out to the mall, I could buy 500 books without even thinking what they are on every possible business-related topic. I mean, I've got you know a library at home of books I'll I'll probably never get to reading because I'm obsessed with buying them when I buy them. If you go back to the early 90s, there's ten business books, you know, and and and and it was typically um uh an autobiography or a biography of a of a very famous entrepreneur, a Richard Branson or or an Alan Sugar. There was never I mean, like now you could go and buy a 300-page book just very specifically on how to start a podcast or how to write a landing page or or go.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

It's just about all about access to information, it's just completely changed in the last what 20, 30 years.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

If you've got no money to buy books, you can watch free free videos on YouTube. I mean, I mean, there is no excuse now to not be educated in a very deep way in any subject if you want to be, but there was just no access to that. So so my knowledge was let's say limited to what I'd read, what I'd had osmosis into me by by being around my parents, some particularly around my dad. And then I guess I always say I just kind of knew by common sense what not to do, um, because I'd look at what people were doing, and it wasn't so much that I knew the right thing, but I knew that what you were doing is definitely the wrong thing. So let's was it gut or was it just keen uh observance, uh more I think I think a bit a bit a bit of everything, you know, gut observance and and then doing doing things wrong and and adjusting and doing doing doing things wrong. Trial and error. Yeah, and because uh I'm not saying for one minute that I I was I was getting getting it all right, but I was just looking at other people getting it so very wrong. Um so and I worked in that business and and I think turned around. I mean, again, you know, we use we talk about turnarounds nowadays, it's normally a story from a ten million dollar loss to a hundred million dollar profit. My turnaround wasn't quite so exciting. It was a business that was losing about 300,000 pounds a year um in 1998, 1999. That's a lot of money, which you know, but back in those days it's probably you know double or triple with the inflation we're talking now. And over a two and a half year period, we uh in my f in my let's say final year, which was the first year of profitability three years later, we made 30 grand. Uh and I was it wasn't the money, uh, but it was the unbelievable amount of lessons that that that that that I that I had along the way. But what I also the the lesson I also learnt was that I didn't want to stay there and that that wasn't something that was going to interest me.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Any one particular lesson that just comes to your mind?

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Any one but I mean there was there was so many I th I think I think a bit I mean a big problem in that business was was people, you know, people, communication, politics, uh different fractions in different different areas. And whilst it was, let's say, certainly not something I got right at the time, the one thing that I can look back at remember is how there was no no clear direction, no clear vision, no uh you know, no North Star that everybody was fighting for, you know, a lot of politics in different departments where you know where everybody was you know trying to run their own own private fiefdom. Um but um but I think yeah, ultimately anything anything in life needs you know needs one clear leader and one and one clear direction, otherwise it it's gonna fall fall down along the way.

SPEAKER_00 14:33

So from that one business, turning it around in a couple of years, to uh what were you doing next?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

So so so I wanted to leave there because I knew I was bored and uh and I'd I'd I'd opened a couple of little bars at the time. They were like side gigs for me. Again, I didn't know anything about the bar industry at the time, but I knew that uh well I I I thought that uh what could be better than owning a bar? I'm 21, 22 years old, I get to go into this bar, I get to you know drink free beer, uh take all the money out of the till and meet loads of girls. It's is it sound sound it sounds like the perfect business. I mean, obviously there was a there was a few few more nuances to it. Uh that's what I want to know.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I mean, listen, you might be really excited of uh starting that business and it might be very attractive, but I'm pretty sure that when you get into the nitty-gritty of running any business, it comes with a lot of pain.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

This was a this was another another very big learning curve for me. Uh and and while I was working in the uniform business, I went on um, I guess what would have probably been my first mastermind. We didn't call them masterminds back then, but first mastermind and a networking trip where the bank that we were uh we banked with um took uh 40 or 50 of what they considered their let's say best accounts, top you know, top entrepreneurs, which to be clear wasn't me. My dad had a relationship with the bank, so he basically got them to let me be the person be the person that went along. So I I was 20 years old at the time. I remember this because we were in America and I was too young to be able to drink. Uh so I was twenty I was 20 years old, and I was there with a load of other business owners who were, let's say, anywhere between probably 35 and 50. And it was my first real exposure to um I guess to lots of other business owners, to lots of other uh uh areas of business problems, you know, a lot of you know a lot of other people.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

A little bit more exposure beyond just your family.

SPEAKER_01 16:23

Yeah, very exciting, very exciting times for me. And I met I met uh a guy there who owned bars and pubs. He he was a freeholder, and uh you know we we became friendly and he was going to help me get into the trade. Obviously, what I yeah, I I thought was his generosity at the time. I realised after the fact was that he had a a load of crap bars that he wanted to get rid of and he found this he found this 20-year-old moron who was happy to uh happy to take them over and do the work. Um but that that was my that was my first entry. Did you fall for it? I did absolutely fell for a hook, line, and sinker. But um everything works out. Oh yeah, everything works out for a reason. And and as well as him giving me his worst bars, he also did act as a mentor, you know, a good mentor for me. Um and you know, I guess it taught me a lot about cash flow, and that was one of the biggest things about the bar, the bar business, which was very different to what I've been used to in the in the uniform business where we were selling B2B, uh, where every person you supply B2B specialises what in in wanting to never pay you. 30 days becomes 60 days, 60 days becomes 90.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Your speciality becomes choosing money.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Absolutely, and and and the cra and and it was it was a crazy, I mean we're flipping back to that, but it was always a crazy situation because you you you you'd you run your business based on 30-day credit terms. Correct. These people would, let's say, push you to 90, and then at 90, when you finally have to say, listen, I am no longer supplying you anymore, even though you're seeing I'm no longer supplying you, they'll turn they turn around and say, if you don't supply us, we'll never buy from you again. And then you're in this ridiculous quandary where it's like, well, hang on a minute, I kind of need to stop supplying them because they still haven't paid me for the last three months. But if I do stop supplying them, then they don't want to supply me anymore.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

And it's all very And you're afraid that they will not even pay you what you're owing.

SPEAKER_01 18:08

Exactly, and it's all very easy for people who are not in it where they go, Well, you know, you just have to put your foot down and tell them. Good luck. Yeah, it's it's it it's it's a it's a a tightrope act that you're that you're walking all the time. But but the bar industry obviously very different where I get to be the B2B person, you know, taking 90 days to pay for the beer, and the person who uh comes and buys the beer has to pay for it in cash before the before they get it. So I can I I started to take on quite a few bars. I think we're well, I say we're going back to the days of checks. I mean, I know here in Dubai we still have checks, but I mean you know in in England I I've I don't think I've seen a check in 20 years, but back then what this guy taught me to do was to buy a bar on a Friday. Well, I mean I buy a bar, these are leases effects. If you're taking like you know, 12-month tenancies, buy a bar on a Friday, pay for it with a check, trade the absolute life out of it over the weekend, because this check with this check probably wouldn't clear until the following Wednesday. Right. And trade the life out of it, bank all the cash on the Monday, Tuesday to make sure you've got enough money to m enough money to clear this check up check the following Wednesday. It was uh not not a strategy I'm I'm I'm pr I'm pr promoting to the faint of hearts, uh, but it but it's uh it's it's certainly certainly got me in got me into the game.

SPEAKER_00 19:19

But that's a big risk. It's it is, but uh But did you have the backing when you were taking the risk? Did you have like okay listen if if the cash doesn't come at over uh you know uh coming over the week, what are you gonna do? Are you gonna let the check bounce?

SPEAKER_01 19:31

Well, I I I guess uh I I guess you don't think as as the as the young, hungry, aggressive entrepreneur, you know you're you're you're not you're not really thinking thinking in those dimensions because you're thinking So no fear?

SPEAKER_00 19:41

No. Okay. I mean I mean I would have probably thought, listen, I mean different personalities, but I would have probably thought, like, listen, I mean, at least knowing that I'm taking such a big risk.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

I think I mean we we're gonna get into let's say the the particulars of culture and law and stuff here. Bouncing a check in the UAE is a very different story to bounce it to bouncing a check in the UK.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

Or let's say go going back then, you bounce a check in the UK, someone just goes, Oh, the check's bounced, I'll I'll I'll I'll represent it again. And you can and you can I forget how many times because it's so long since I've dealt with checks, you used to be able to take it back and and and the banker try it again for one more time or try it again for again for again for another time. So I guess I'm probably there thinking, well, that's so what's my worst case scenario? My worst case scenario is it bounces on Wednesday, I have to apologise to them, and they and and they'll I'll it'll clear it'll clear for them the foot the following Wednesday. But listen, touch wood, it was never a well not touch wood, you know, looking back, it was never a problem we had to we had to deal with because um because and and and also to be clear we're not talking huge sums of money here. These are you know six to six to ten grand you know pet pounds we get in. And and also bear in mind, you know, you you're selling your you're selling your beer on a 70% margin, 65-70% margin, and we also know what these bars are doing before we take them. So so so it's not sort of calculated. It's not it's it's it's a calculated risk. It's it's not it's not a wild gamble if uh if that makes sense. But it this was my let's say my first training in the the the importance of of of cash flow and the and the and a way to say leverage other people's money uh to move things forward. Now, so the bars I had they traded okay. You know, I always say they traded with various degrees of unsuccess. I mean not not none of them were terrible, but none of them really made me much money. And what I realized is the reason they didn't make me any enough money is because you couldn't make enough profit from selling beer alone or from from from selling it, selling alcohol alone. If I looked at the other six the very successful places, they all had ancillary income, you know, whether it was door money because someone was paying to get in for some reason, you had a DJ, uh, maybe it was food, uh, or or or some other activity going on there. And that other activity that I uh became a a part time specialist. specialist in with strippers because uh when I when I wasn't working in my own bars I was visiting the local strip club and I I guess I decided I learned learnt the strip club model by by being a customer. What I was looking at these businesses thinking well this is so much better than mine. I have to on a Saturday night I've got 200 clients in there who don't pay me anything to walk in who buy the who buy the beer at let's say a 65 70% margin and I need lots and lots of staff to look after these people because to take the money I take I I've got so many clients in there. Then I go look at the strip club and it's like well hang on a minute the the the 200 customers I've got they've got 40 customers. All my customers paid nothing to go in all of their customers paid 10 pounds or 20 pounds to go in. All of my staff I'm paying them to come to work and I need lots of them all of their staff they only need one or two of them because because because they're less serving less drinks and the rest of the staff the strippers are paying to come to work and we're not selling beer on a 65 70% margin we're selling champagne on a 90% margin. So you know every every metric of the two businesses was just diametrically diametrically opposed. So I could see why I thought it was going to be a better business and I I I got quite close to the man to the manager of this particular club and said look come and leave there come and work for me I want I I want to go and find a find a venue and uh and let's let's open a strip club. I basically sold everything I had the the all the bars I all the bars I had I had a couple I built a had a couple of houses by that point as well and literally sold absolutely everything which which gave me enough money to to put the deposit on this on this particular building in a very small town outside of Leeds called Wakefield this is um in probably November 2003 and in March 2004 my brand was called Wildcats the first Wildcats opened um in um I so I was I was 23 at the time um and it it hit hit the ground running hit the ground running it was a flyer from the outside where did this courage come from?

SPEAKER_00 24:07

Because listen like you know you're seeing all these things and then you bring the age into context um it takes a lot of courage because one is either you're so skilled that you have that confidence in you know what you know and knowing what I know of you I know that you aren't just simply um you know shooting in the dark where was this um courage coming from like who was backing you who was um you know motivating you was it just self-driven or you know self-belief or what was it?

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Back back then it was all it was always self-driven. I mean if if we talk about today you know I I I I obviously talk a very different story nowadays about about whether it's mentors or or or advisors or or or or and also I've got 25 years extra knowledge today than than I had back then. I think back then it was just raw desire hunger you know desperation call it call it whatever you want desperation to be better and I I you know I always say I don't have a rags to riches story. You know I I I didn't come from some poverty background you know my my parents weren't gazillionaires um you know we lived in a nice house we always went on holidays you know we had a my parents had a small holiday home in Spain you know so I was I was very much middle class you know to the rest of the world and I never wanted for anything as a kid. I mean to be clear my parents never fight financed any of my businesses but as a let's say up until 18 years old I never wanted for anything but it was never enough for me you know and and and and I I always I was like well I want the first class not the business class I want the private jet or I want six houses not a flat um and that and that was that was just always my always my driving force um and I guess I never really thought about the downside because you know how how how low can you go the the upside's infinite the that the the downside is we have to pick up and start and there was a downside wasn't there what happened so I mean what happened is a a 10 hour podcast in and of itself but the the but the short story is my let's say fearless desire to grow uh became coupled with my insatiable appetite for debt um and and I went from 2004 we opened the first one and by 2008 I'd grown to the biggest strip club operator in the UK had 11 venues trading and a few ancillary businesses under the same brand I'd started a pub portfolio I had 60 pubs I was a partner in a chain of retail stores I started a finance company I was doing everything all of this stuff was was built was built on borrowed was built on leverage leverage itself wasn't the problem but it was short term expensive leverage um you know listen look looking uh looking back you know what could I have done different when it could have been you know longer term leverage it could have been equity it could have been it could have been many things but back then particularly with the strip clubs because the the that we have obviously a word in in finance called reputational risk the mainstream banks you know the let's say clean investors didn't want to be in that industry which left me with no alternative other than to go to niche lenders alternative lenders not not loan sharks or anyone dodgy but just different lenders who would lend over 24 months instead of 10 years who would be charging 20% interest rates not 8% interest rates so I started to find these people and I didn't know who any of them were uh to to start with I got introduced to one of them by a finance broker one introduced me to another to another and over the course of the next five years I think I ended up with 200 finance agreements from 80 different lenders and I mean I bit I effectively the reason you didn't have anyone uh in your team from the finance background sort of raising the flags or warning you or sort of trying to give you two cents or were you just so focused on wanting it all that I mean there's a few a few different answers in there and I but I think one one of the most overriding answers was I I probably never thought it was going to end because it because as long as I was growing and as long as people were lending the wheels kept moving this the these wheels would only stop moving if I stopped if if either I stopped growing or they stopped lending and obviously I thought I was never going to stop growing and I had also never been through a cycle where lending stops. You know this is so I was let's say 20 between 23 and 28 and the previous recession was probably I don't know if it was before I was born but it was certainly something I I had no knowledge of whatsoever. And also again let's put into perspective that as a I was a 23 year old borrower borrowing money from 45 year old lenders who have been through another cycle and you know when I say should know what was going on if I'm if they're happy to lend I'm happy to borrow. It wasn't let's say as as black and white or as clear cut as well you must have seen the writing on the wall because because I didn't and but and and what happened effectively was not an event within my businesses it was an event of the bigger world which was uh the credit crunch of 2008 happened that pulled any liquidity out of the market that lack of liquidity filtered down the filtered down the ranks which meant the big banks didn't have any money so they don't give the middle banks any money and they don't give my little lenders any money so all of a sudden my little lenders who were who were lending to me A can't do any new lending and B then can't be really be flexible with me with my problems because there was a a effectively a domino of things that would happen. First problem was they stopped lending to me and the second problem was well I'm I'm then paying them back out of short term money and I'm I'm being hit at the top end in my units because they're not taking as much money anymore and also I've got ones that I'm trying to open that are half finished because I've had half the money off them not the rest of the money so the only way to then get out of this was to say well listen we can fight we can trade out of this but I can't pay you back over two years anymore I need five years or seven years or whatever it was and again let's say naive as I was back then was thinking well look these guys A don't want to lose their money and B you know they're in the business of lending so what difference does it make to them if if I pay them over five years instead of two or whatever. As long as they make their interest as long as they make the interest and to be clear I didn't ask anyone to to take a haircut on the on the amount of the money or on the interest rates I just said look I can't pay over two years give me seven years. Restructure the law I mean countries do it well I'd say 10% of my lenders said yes and I was saying to those listen you need to because a lot of these guys know each other so I'm like you need to talk to the other ones because this is not a you know you guys do it and it works unless I've got 70 80% buy in here the numbers just don't work and the pro I think the problem was at this point and I always say if I was doing this a year later I think I'd be telling a very different story today but back then this was at the very very beginning of the credit crunch people knew there was some trouble coming but they didn't really know how bad it was going to be and I was literally in like kind of month one a month two and I'm saying to these guys look if if you force me you're gonna force me into bankruptcy. I'm offering you a hundred a hundred pence in the pound 100% here and they were all all the ones who wouldn't accept Richard most of them were saying you don't want to go bankrupt so you'll find a way I said I don't want to go bankrupt of course I said but I owe about 45 million quid I you know this is not a 500 grand hole to find you know where am I finding this from it doesn't matter how much I want to solve it I physically can't solve it which ultimately was the trigger that pushed me into bankruptcy but I would say if this would have happened maybe a year or so later when these lenders have suffered utter carnage you were seeing people offering them 10p in the pound 15p in the pound and they were saying thank you thank you thank you for any cash was well anything so you know listen I don't know listen it's not hindsight it it's theorising would things have been different it would have certainly been easier to set to to to settle with them but I I I don't know if it would have been listen but also one more thing while your business went bankrupt uh from a personal assets perspective were you ring fenced had you structured your assets or you'd done none of that and all your properties and all your assets were gone. So so all of my businesses were cross collateralized and and I was put I personally personally guaranteed everything as well. Now that's something that look you know 20 years on would I have done something differently it's all very well to say don't give a personal guarantee. If you don't give a personal guarantee you won't you're you're not borrowing the money.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Not when you're at that scale.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

Yes um I mean yeah obviously when you're doing you know big deals and and and you've got uh lots of you know wool on your back and and you're dealing with big banks and blah blah but but when you're dealing with 50 grand lenders 100 grand or even if it's not a full personal guarantee most if not all of these lenders expect some expect some skin in the game from um skin in the game from the owner. So uh so yes you know I mean people you know you always hear people on the sidelines nowadays saying oh never sign a personal guarantee well don't but you know you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna seriously struggle to uh struggle to borrow any money.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

How did the comeback happen?

SPEAKER_01 33:32

So I went bankrupt very quickly I I always uh hear the expression now you know very very slowly and then and then quickly because you know these it's like like a snowball slowly building and I I you know if you'd have asked me in in June 2008 everything was tickety boo uh I had a in England we have credit rating systems you know I was a I had a 999 credit rating which was as high as you could possibly get people throwing money at me and by September I was personally bankrupt no businesses no income uh living in a house with a mortgage uh a wife and a one year old baby so it was a it was a reasonably reasonably dramatic fall from grace um and I always say you know that I don't have this exciting comeback story of you know I was suicidal and drinking and in a dark place I came back from a a place of practicality really which was that I had a wife and daughter who needed providing for uh and I always say that I wasn't born to be poor um so again everyone around me was saying well you're finished you know you've you've gone bankrupt no one will deal with you again your life's over and yeah these were all people a lot older and a lot you know wiser than me so kind of half of me's thinking well they're right they must be right though they know more than me that they know they know more than me they know what they're talking about the other half of me was thinking if they are right I'd rather jump off a bridge you know I've I've got I've got I've got no I've got no choice but to but to prove them wrong not because I want to prove them wrong but just because I don't want to go and don't want to go and get a job. So my first priority was I had to put some food on the table I had to had to had to get some income um you know I I wasn't going to be let's say pretending I could go and build another nightclub overnight or or or or go and build another business I just needed to get some food on the table um and I I learnt the skill of borrowing money because you know obviously that that's what got me in that mess. And I say a skill and and and it very much is a skill you know and I think even even to the to this day you you'll find many great business owners and business operators who can build their business but they don't really know anything about about raising money for that business. Because it it's a it's a completely different skill it's a skill in of itself so I was reasonably well networked around my my local city or my city local area at the time and I had knew a lot of people who had businesses who wanted money but were not being able to get it from their banks. So I basically created a job for myself as a finance broker because obviously I knew all these lenders and I borrowed off you know whilst you know some of them you know didn't want to go anywhere near me you know m m most of the others realized that I hadn't done anything maliciously to cause this problem.

SPEAKER_00 36:16

I was a victim of circumstance and they were and I think with the passage of time people do come to realisation that it wasn't a you problem it was actually a global problem.

SPEAKER_01 36:24

I think m m most people do you know I I I think anyone at scale tends to look at the bigger picture. You know smaller people seem to take it seem to take everything very personally. So I started off being a fine being a finance broker uh matching matching borrowers and lenders that grew I as some of my old investors then said well we are we're happy to do some deals with you again so I got a couple of them to invest in me to become a lender instead of a broker we started to lend in a little way um and that was probably 2010 something like that 2010 2011 and if we compressed the last 15 years into 30 seconds I just grew grew from that position really of of raising money using that money to lend to lend to people who want to borrow money whether I was broking or whether I was being a lending principal and you know and and playing all the roles that you could sat sat in the middle.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

So listen that's a very niche skill right and uh experience that you've gathered and I think uh speaking of the UAE context there's a lot of small businesses out here um especially in times of conflicts like the ones that we've been through recently uh liquidity crunches uh cash is off the colleague and all of a sudden we don't necessarily have a skilled population out here when it comes to either cash flow management um I'm talking about the small businesses uh the mountain pop shops right I'm not talking about the large multinationals so they don't know how to even raise money for the OPEX um two tips that you would give to those small business owners in UAE um that from your experience if they were short of cash for OPEX where do they go what do they do?

SPEAKER_01 38:08

So a few different things I think you know and I'd probably be giving a very different answer in the UAE than than to the UK simply because and you you you very different you tell me if I'm wrong here but I but I find that the lending market for small businesses here I mean not just underdeveloped I'd say it's non-existent in the US That's why I asked the question. Yeah so in England if I was talking to someone I'd be helping them get the ducks in a row before they then actually go and borrow some money from and I'd be talking about like make sure you borrow the right money from the right people you know like do you need asset finance do you need cash flow finance whereas here I think you know put people almost need to learn to bootstrap better uh but but but one one of the you know one of the things I'll always say to anyone who wants to borrow money do you really need to borrow that money because because because so so many so many times I'll look at you know I'll look I'll look at someone's lending prop lending proposal or you know investment document whatever whatever it may be and they're they're wasting money left right and centre or they're they're they're wanting to buy things that they don't need they're wanting wanting to invest in something too early. So first of all make sure that you've you've got your business plan uh or your current business cut down to the absolute bare bones and I've seen hundreds of times someone who had a 200 grand require requirement that comes down to 50 grand you know people who had 50 grand requirements who don't who who who don't don't even need money so that that's that's one thing um I think you know people are always shy to go to the bank well I call the you know the bank of mum and dad but you know but what whatever that may be you know for fr friends family particularly you know again when it comes to raising raising equity investment because raising any kind of finance uh you know particularly to to take a business to the next stage or to start a business is it's one of the hardest hardest things you'll ever do. I think it's harder to raise the money than it is to is is to run the business at times. And you know that there's people very often have someone around them who who will help if they ask you know whether that's a a grandma who's about you know who's who's you know she's uh down to her last couple of years and she she wants to help wants to help her favourite grandson or or or whether whether it's a you know a a mate and people people don't like to ask them because uh you know that I guess they're they're embarrassed or too proud or proud or whatever it may be. But you you you've you've just got to be you've got to be creative bootstrap as much as you can and find money in places you don't you don't know it exists you know rather than borrowing money can I get clients to pay me early you know can I can I can I can I offer people deals can I sell something before I get paid for and and just I guess all of my finance deals or all my better finance deals came from a place of creativity when my back was up against the wall. Interesting.

SPEAKER_00 40:47

And you know talking about that um underdeveloped or non-existent uh infrastructure when it comes to uh let's put it this way raising money in the UEFA and I think it was um you know I wanted to have you over here on this podcast because uh I'm here looking to build and working towards building an ecosystem for entrepreneurship. One key challenge that I find um existing out here in this geography is exactly that the financing bit whether it's through debt financing equity financing and I compare it to many other countries which are uh better or worse but the infrastructure when it comes to financing is almost non-existent out here. Why did you doing what you do land up in UA then?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

So I I came here just for lifestyle reasons. You know I I I I didn't come here to come here to do business initially I meant I was on a COVID holiday back in back in 2020 you know I c I came for seven days or ten days whatever it was and at the end of those ten days England was still on a lockdown so I thought well there's no point me going back uh just yet and by the way I never thought I'm gonna stay here forever. It was very simply oh well I may as well do another week and then we're still on a lockdown I may as well do another week and one week became two weeks became two months by which point I was then loving Dubai uh I think I'd I'd I'd met a girl which w went on to then having a baby and before I knew it I was I was a year deep a year deep here you know with a with with uh a load of friends loving loving a lifestyle with a with a with a pregnant girlfriend and um and very bored of the UK so I I just I came here I guess A for lifestyle and B for connections well I came for lifestyle and then knowing about connections and then I learned what a great market this was for raising capital because I mean that that is the interesting point here it's a terrible market for for borrowing money but it's a fantastic market it's a fantastic market for raising capital it seems like there's a lot of capital out here um but it somehow is not getting connected to the small businesses or the right channels I mean I I I I don't know why I don't know if it if it is is it a cultural thing that she um you know let lend because obviously with Sharia law and stuff uh and I know you you don't have to do sharia law but uh I guess you know with that being a big part of the culture has that slowed things down and the ultimate ultimately what the the most important thing as a lender is how are you going to get your money back uh and and I again from the from the bits and pieces I do know of here in the UAE there there isn't as defined an enforcement structure as there would be in the UK now I I'm I'm in I'm spending a lot of time in Bali at the moment as well and I and I see exactly the same kind of problems there because I meet a lot of friends who've got property developments or that they're doing property development so whether they're friends or people I meet and I've been asked a dozen times by people who have a shortfall cash requirement to help them on something. And every one of these deals from let's say it from from a a top level practical perspective I would do them all day long. You know it's uh if we're talking amounts of money alone to values it's like somebody wants two hundred grand and I can In principle, take a first first charge over a two million pound development. You know, I mean absolute no-brainer deals. I've not done a single deal because I can't I can't find an Indonesian lawyer who can talk any sense about how the legal structure even works there for when it comes to enforcement.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

So do you think it's uh high time because we've had now a rehaul of some regulations out here. We have now the bankruptcy law and this and that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

But are you not seeing the effects of it on the ground or I mean look, I I I'm not knowledgeable enough to to to to know exactly, but I can just say I guess look from from a top-level perspective, the there's there's two kinds of lending unsecured lending and secured lending. And if you're going to lend something secured, you need to know quite simply that you have control of that asset to be able to take it and sell it in a in a in a in a timely manner. If you cut if you can't do that, then it's not a it's not a secured asset. Um and then from an unsecured perspective, you have to have a a pr a process that you can that you can go through to you know to ultimately make somebody bankrupt and uh and then collect what's there to be collected or or or write it off because you know unsecured lending and the secured lending are two are two two very different games. I mean it's it's it's an interesting one because I know obviously things have improved for for lenders, but uh also from a borrower's perspective or or a business owner's perspective, there's some very harsh rules here as well, which I which I don't think are particularly uh proactive for business. You know, the fact that my understanding is it's almost impossible to get out of a bankruptcy, you know, that that that that when you've got debts against you you can have travel bans and and and these these kind of things, which obviously I guess maybe a lender thinks it's a good thing from their perspective, but it also puts it puts the borrowers off from wanting from wanting to get in those kind of positions in the first place. And I say that as someone who was more than happy to sign sign personal guarantees because I'll put my money where my mouth is and I'll take I'll take the risk. But there's a big difference between taking a risk to lose businesses and I guess let's say lose houses and become bankrupt to taking risks losing freedom, except to having your passport taken off you and being stuck in a country for the rest of your life.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

So I think listen, I mean there has been definitely a major overhaul, and uh, you know, from the looks of it, it's just gonna be a while before they start uh you you start seeing results uh in effect, and I think it's just a journey, and when you think about it, um you know, as a country, we haven't uh had a financial infrastructure um out here in the UAE uh in comparison to uh you know England or UK uh for hundreds and hundreds of years.

SPEAKER_01 46:45

That's the thing and look, it's gonna look if we think of where the UAE is UAE is from a legal system, yes, for sure it's behind the UK, but I don't know the exact number of years, but the UK legal system is built up on hundreds and hundreds of years. If you look at the UAE, it's built we've got to where we've got to today in what, I don't know, 30, 40 years, or yes, yeah. So some some something very small. So so we've kind of done already here in the UAE in 40 years what England probably did in 400 years. We just need another we don't need another 40 years, we need another two or three or five years or something.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

I think 10 years, and you know, I mean you're gonna see a massive difference. I mean, um London used to be the financial capital of the world for a reason because it was a regulatory framework, and today, for example, uh people that know know that UAE is technically a financial capital of the world, and that's also on the back of the regulations, um, whether it's at ADGM or whether it's at the AFC. And if you really understood those regulations, you would understand why all of a sudden the wealth is flowing this way is because remember, no wealthy person is gonna put their wealth where the Lord isn't protected. And um, we've had n number of what high net worth individuals, millionaires flying in from the UK, probably could have come here just for lifestyle purposes, just as yourself, be it COVID or not. Uh but once they come, they don't go back. This place is a magnet, and it's a magnet because it's not that there's something in the air, it's just more to do with you know, when you feel safe. I mean, um I know you are a father and you know you're really caring about your daughter, and as a family man, you feel safe out here. Absolutely. Right? I mean, you don't get that in the UK. No, no chance. Um, especially in today's day and age. When it comes to I think fathers like me and you, um, who have that passion and the drive to make the money, earn the money, go for it, and you know, win the world kind of a situation, we don't do it at an expense of uh putting the you know the kids' lives at risks. So I don't think all said and done, whether the bankruptcy law happens and how it you know plays out in real life out here now, uh whether the financial institutions wake up to the realization that they need a better um play out here to ta you know to access um the small businesses and also vice versa for the small businesses to learn how to um put their ducks in a row, like you said, to be able to access the banking system and the financial system. But as successful people or not successful people, like you said, the instinct kicks in. We will care about the safety of our people. And do you know of a place better than here?

SPEAKER_01 49:30

No, not not at all. I mean, listen, I've just come back I've just come back from Europe. I've been well, okay. I was gonna say I've been in Monaco, probably a bad example because I feel very safe, feel very safe in Monaco as well. I mean, look, you know, you can't compare Monaco to Dubai in terms of excitement and scale and everything else, but I think from a safety perspective, it's it's probably one of the only places in the world that can just about just about touch Dubai. But after that I went to Marbella uh in south of Spain, I went to Barcelona in the in the north of Spain. Uh I was around Nice before I went to Monaco. And every one of those places, you I feel like you're looking over your shoulder constantly, constantly looking over your shoulder. You know, sitting in having meetings in bars with people where they say, by the way, take your watch off. Don't walk out, don't don't walk out of fear of the watch. You know, and just i there's just a real feeling of unsafety. Whereas uh you know, where whereas here, you know, you you just know there isn't gonna be a problem.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

Yeah, I mean listen, the the region's going through a conflict situation, and all of a sudden I was supposed to travel to Europe and I decided not to, because in my head I probably thought at that time, and rightly so, that this place is gonna be safer than anywhere else, even in times of conflicts.

SPEAKER_01 50:41

Listen, i you know, I mean like I am no geopolitical expert, so uh so uh you know I can't I can't really start talking about talking about But you're a person who has businesses, you have family, you have investments, you have clients. What what I would I would absolutely say is that my experience of being here when bombs or missiles have been in the sky, as crazy as it sounds, doesn't remotely compare to the feeling of unsettlement walking wal walking down the Rambler in in bar in Barcelona. You know, it could could someone obviously some people have been hurt or whatever over here for sure, yeah, because it's impossible for for the for them for them not to be. But I've felt much safer in the UAE with watching missiles out of my balcony window than than than I have literally, you know, walking the streets.

SPEAKER_00 51:31

Listen, I mean I don't know where that um energy comes from, but I think it's um on the back of creating this safe environment. And you know, while the regulations are evolving, I also am glad that these current laws exist because a lot of them do end up contributing to me and you feeling safe on the ground here.

SPEAKER_01 51:53

Absolutely. I mean at the end of the day, the the the the reason we feel safe is because people know that if they mess around here, it comes with consequences, and the reason people don't care about messing around in England or France or wherever it may be is because they know that the consequences aren't there. Um and you know, again, people in the UK, uh I can't comment on other countries because I don't really have the conversations with them, but I know people back in the UK, especially when I counted Dubai in the beginning, they were like, ooh, but you know, this is look that you're gonna go to jail for 40 years if you take drugs, or you're gonna have your hands cut off if you if you steal something. I'm like, Well, yes. I mean, do I think it's harsh? Of course I think it's harsh. But as someone who isn't gonna be taking drugs or stealing things, I I think it's fantastic because it me it means that even the people who do want to take drugs or do want to steal things will go and find somewhere else to do it. Because, you know, even if someone's a criminal, they tend to have a bit of a brain, and it's like, well, if I'm gonna sell drugs and get 40 years here, or if I'm gonna sell drugs and get two years there, I'll take my risk for two years, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna take it for 40 years, and and and and it ultimately it's it's those harsh penalties that uh you know that that that give us a safety we do, and you know, the rest of the world's gone soft.

SPEAKER_00 53:01

No, I I agree, and I think it's just this whole um crisis situation that's happening everywhere else is also pushing a lot more investor confidence into this region. And something on the back of what we just said, I mean, you know, um the consequences. Do you think your ability to take risks um and you know deal with bankruptcy was because of the way the regulation was out there in the UK, or do you think it was just who you were?

SPEAKER_01 53:34

I I did I did I didn't even understand what that meant at the time, you know.

SPEAKER_00 53:38

But what did it teach you? Even if it's a lesson.

SPEAKER_01 53:43

I th I think I think what I've learned from it now is that um you've got to you've gotta have set skill sets that can get you get you out of different different situations and you've got to have mentors or someone you can go to go to to get knowledge to help you about about a different situation. Um so when I look at my let's say business now and life now, you know, d do I do I take risks still? Yeah, I take risks. Okay, would I would I take a 100% risk on everything I've got? No. I'm probably still taking 85% risk, still taking an 85% risk, but the reason I take the risks that I take is because I believe that I either have the skill set to navigate through the problem or people I can turn to for for for advice to do it, and that's I guess that's why you know I consider things either not a risk or a very calculated risk, because you know I know that if I do ABC, then there's a very likely likelihood of D happening, and if it doesn't happen, then what happens? Well, okay, it's you know it's not a can not not a catastrophic problem. And I know that you know if I have something I don't understand, I'm probably one step away from somebody who who does understand it. So ultimately, you know, skill set a skill set and network is what has built the confidence for me to take more risks. And I think back then I was just taking risks because uh because I was I was young and wild, but now it's you know probably a more calculated position.

SPEAKER_00 55:13

And what are your thoughts about the city and the network it has to offer?

SPEAKER_01 55:17

The the city of Dubai, the network. I mean, listen, it it's it's been the best concentrated network or networking opportunity that I I could possibly possibly ask for here. Uh I mean listen, that's not to say there aren't good people in other parts of the world, but the great thing about Dubai is there's just so many. I mean, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands, and probably tens of thousands, of of high caliber people who also come with a very open attitude here. Uh, I mean, again, this listen, there's plenty of other good people in other countries, but they come with a lot more of a closed attitude. Whereas here, uh, you know, people want to help, you know, people like to like to be reached out to and and uh happy to make introductions, happy to take coffees. Um and and and aside from the people who are already here, there's people always flying through here as well. I mean, it's it's just so easy to meet, you know, incredible entrepreneurs here.

SPEAKER_00 56:10

Right. Matt, I want to jump into the next segment, uh, which is basically a rapid fire. Go for it. Less thinking, uh immediate response.

SPEAKER_01 56:19

How long answers? Just a few sentences.

SPEAKER_00 56:21

Whatever, whatever comes to your mind. Uh I mean if you feel like going long, then don't. All right. Let's start. Ready? Okay. Advice to startups. Debt, trapped or opportunity? And advice to startups. Is debt a trap or an opportunity?

SPEAKER_01 56:41

I think startup businesses need to take money in any way that they possibly can. Debt probably isn't realistic because it's a startup business. Debt tends to need to come with experience or or or with cash flow. Um so if you can get it great, but um it's it's an opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 56:59

Okay. Uh best thing to hold on for a founder, cash or equity.

SPEAKER_01 57:07

Um if you believe in yourself, you want to be holding on to the equity.

SPEAKER_00 57:11

The number in a pitch deck you will trust the least.

SPEAKER_01 57:16

I don't think I trust any projections in a in a in a pitch deck. Um I I like to understand the logic behind the numbers more than the numbers themselves, because I think we all know that every number is wrong. It's just how did they get to that wrong number? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:32

What's a red flag that instantly kills the deal for you?

SPEAKER_01 57:37

I just get a feeling with people. I think it's just that feeling of 25 plus years of dealing with people who don't want to borrow who don't want to pay money back. So I I think uh you know, more than a deck, more than a number, more than anything, when I meet someone, even if it's just on a Zoom call, I get that feeling in my stomach.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Okay. Your biggest business win.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

My biggest business win is being my network. It's not a specific company, it's not a specific project, but any big thing that's happened to me in my life has always come from somebody who I've previously cultivated in my network.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

For those who are looking for investment, what's one non-negotiable for you to invest in them?

SPEAKER_01 58:27

My biggest non-negotiable is that I need to know that you have got everything on the line.

SPEAKER_00 58:33

Okay. Your bankruptcy, do you think it's a badge you carry or a scar?

SPEAKER_01 58:40

It's a scar. I mean I I you know a badge would say is like a badge of honor. I mean it's not something I shout from the rooftops about. It's been a fantastic learning experience, but I wouldn't really wish it on anybody anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

Um fastest red flag in an entrepreneur. Laziness. What's a business you would never invest in today? Something I don't understand. The biggest myth about Dubai.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

You've got to be careful what you say here as well, otherwise I'll I'll be getting forty years in jail.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

I think that's the biggest myth. That you would get a forty years. Business myth.

SPEAKER_01 59:29

Big biggest business myth about Dubai is that it's only billionaires and gazillionaires. There's all kinds of hungry business owners here on all rungs of the ladder. The thing that they want more than people in other countries is is success.

SPEAKER_00 59:44

If your kid says I'm betting everything on one idea, would you be proud or terrified?

SPEAKER_01 59:50

Listen, I've done it myself, so uh I guess I'd be proud. I'd try and educate them, but if that's what they want to do, then uh they they can't uh do anything different to what I've done.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Best advice for someone who has lost it all suddenly.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:04

That it's not the end. That was always the worst advice I was ever given that uh that losing it all is the end.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

And the last one, what's the quickest way to sport a future millionaire?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

The quickest way to sport a future millionaire is uh by how quick they execute.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:25

So speed over everything.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

Speed over everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Amazing. Matt, it's been a wonderful uh you know, conversation with you out here. And uh I think um firstly in some shape or form, I know you're running a business. I know you do it um to be a provider, to uh be the person that you've always wanted to be and better. But I also think that it very nicely fits into this uh ecosystem uh that needs to exist for businesses to flourish. And uh while there is a stigma against borrowing, lending, debt, uh I think anyone and everyone who understands numbers, who understands finances will understand that the best way to maximize your ROI is through leverage. It just has to be done right. So thank you for your contributions to the world of entrepreneurship and you know uh SMEs. And uh I look forward to having some wonderful conversations with you uh over the period because I'm sure you will come across some interesting businesses. But if there is one industry or a particular sector or a business that you believe is the gold mine of the future, what would that one thing be?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:54

You know, it's really funny you say that because I was just sat here listening to you wrapping up thinking it's been the first podcast I've not talked about AI on for a while. And and is that your answer? Now you said that that that that is my answer. Whether it's in the industry of AI itself or whether it's an industry using AI to you know to disrupt and rewrite that industry, that is all anyone should be thinking about for the next couple of years.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Yeah, I think it's uh wave, right? Someone was telling me you had the gold wave and then you had the crypto wave, and now you're running through this whole AI data center wave and right on it while at it.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

I mean, I guess to put it into perspective, you know, listen, I'm I'm not talking about me personally investing in AI businesses because I'm not really technological enough to understand them, but I'm taking maximum advantage of AI within my businesses. And uh, you know, in the last six or seven months, our net head count across all the businesses is down by about 40%. That's not because we've gone out to fire anybody, but when people have when people have naturally left, I would say that every one of these people who naturally left two years ago would have all been replaced one for one. We've not been replacing anybody because I pushed the team to say, hang on, take a step back, let's look at the processes that that they they do and how can we replace that with AI. And there's been not one situation where we've not been able to replace them in some way. We've had two new hires in the last six or seven months, and therefore really unrelated positions that are very difficult to replicate. Brilliant. Thanks a lot, Matt. Thank you for having me.

unknown 1:03:28

Every day I'm muscling, every day I'm muscling, every day I'm muscling, every day I'm muscling, every day.